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Horrible grading company

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codydude815 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote codydude815 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Horrible grading company
    Posted: 13 Jun 2007 at 6:01am
The Cody has spoken
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WMGKL View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WMGKL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2007 at 5:48am
Horrible barely describes them.  Anybody who has to yell (in print) about their product to get noticed is not worth listening to.  Those folks put a whole lot of junk on e-bay, and it seems to me that it is just that: junk!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote just carl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2007 at 10:23am
Unfortunately that is why there is an ebay. Sort of like how to get rid of junk cars. That is why there are used car lots and used car dealers and you know what people say about them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbob1968 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2007 at 11:56am
I can't imagine what kind of an idiot would look at this listing and even consider taking it seriously.  If it wasn't so crazy bad, it might be worth a good laugh.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WilliamKellogg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2007 at 10:34pm
In my opinion the coin is Fine 12 or Fine 15 at best, but that's just my opinion.  Coin World's investigation of the grading services back in 2003 found that not one of the seven or so investigated agreed to the grade of a single coin sent in. 
 
Nevertheless, we might want to be careful about the adjectives we use to describe certain services or dealers, because many have sued for defamation and now the lawyers are even going after the sites and the service providers.  One service provider closed down a forum that had a lot of slander and defamation in it.   Since coin grading can still be proven to be "subjective opinion" instead of "objective fact" in a court of law, this leaves the greedy lawyers out there wide open to initiate all kinds of slander and defamation suits. 
 
I'm not defending anyone here, I'm just saying we have to be careful.  In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, a subective value judgement or unproven "opinion" expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product or group.  Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and to allow defendants to retaliate against criticism.
 
Although my "opinion" of the grade is lower than the merchants "opinion", I cannot prove, under current laws, that my "opinion" is "fact", especially when even the best grading services can't agree.  In the Coin World investigation, PCGS had graded one coin "MS 63" while ACCGS, a far less known and cheaper service, conservatively graded it "AU 50 cleaned" - That's a 13 point spread.  Coin World (and I) were careful not to state which grading service was "right" or which one was "wrong", since those are "value judgements", not facts.  So wisely, Coin World just merely reported the results of their investigation without adding their "opinion". 
 
In the end, most "Ebayers" can look at the "AU" coin in question and compare it to hundreds of other posted "AUs", and let the market and the bids determine the value.  I think overgrading has been around since the frist coins were collected and will probably be around as long as collecting is, and I've seen plenty of it from both collectors and dealers alike.  But then again, that's just my opinion. 
 
I think it was someone in the Newcomb book on Large Cents who stated something like this:   "You may think its XF and I may think its VG but if we both agree on a price, say of $100, then the coin "graded" at $100, and that's all that matters."  Unfortunately, however, a lot of people don't know how to grade.  Ebay is not all bad, because bidders can look at all the pictures and get a good sense of grading themselves. 
 
What I've learned over the years is that you can't rely on a single picture from a "grading book".  I have a over a hundred XF Indian cents, and not a sinlge one looks exactly the same. All were graded by PCGS as "XF 45" at one time or another, but I got tired of the bulky slabs and now they handsomely reside in a beautiful album.  Some dealers and collectors have called some of these coins "AU" while others have said some are"Fine".   But again, none of them appear exatly alike because earlier dates were weakly struck in some areas, and later dates were bodly struck in other areas. 
 
Many collectors either forget or do not know, for example, that even Uncirculated Buffalo nickels can having missing horns on the Buffalo.  I grade by overall detail and consider striking characteristics.    Grading thus is a trial and error process with risks, but collecting is worth the risks and even ocassional losses for all the gains that experience and knowledge affords. 


Edited by WilliamKellogg - 22 Jun 2007 at 10:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WilliamKellogg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2007 at 11:48pm
Here are some comments I've read about "slabs" and PCGS from members of the Beverly Hills Coin Club over the years: 
 
"If the counterfeiters can make such nice forged coins, then I see no technical difficulty for them to make fake slabs inwhich to incase coins. How hard will it be for them to issue slabbed coins that appear to be geninuely certified by one of the larger certification houses?   True, each slab has a "certification number posted online", but I've never known any collector or dealer to "verify" a number any more than I've ever known a merchant to "verify" a number on a dollar bill.  Who has time for such nonsense when its far more fun to hold and study coins in our hands?  If someone can't learn by trial and error then they can't learn much."
 
"I for one will never slab my coins, as I need to touch them at times and feel their weight in my hand. One bad thing about slabbing is that it discourages developing an eye for style, edges, rims and planchet characteristics, a skill that is fluid and evolves in real time in order to accurately respond to new forgery threats, something a slab can never do. I believe that building and maintaining this skill is absolutely necessary to becoming a good scientifically grounded numismatist. I think that when the motivation for individual scholarship is no longer necessary, many new collectors will enter the hobby with no drive to learn, greatly limiting their experience and possibility to contribute to the ever growing well of knowledge that we all take for granted today. Take the risks, learn for yourself, and relish the mistakes along the way as learning experiences, and you will become a valuable contributor to the science of numismatics."


Edited by WilliamKellogg - 22 Jun 2007 at 11:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WMGKL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2007 at 5:09am
I agree with your comment about our vulnerability to libel action if we're not careful how we phrase our opinions and have said so in the past when some folks got a little testy in their comments.  I don't see anything libelous so far in this posting, but some people  will do practically anything if they think they can make a buck at it regardless of normal ethical or moral standards (and some judges will go along with them, too).  Still, caveat emptor, n'est-ce pas?  Value is determined by what the market will bear.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DoubleDie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2007 at 5:10am
The coin is over graded, but ebay is not just a place to get rid of junk. One just has to learn from experience what buyers to buy from.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WilliamKellogg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2007 at 7:26pm

Found at www.wikipedia.com :

 Found at Wikipedia:
 
The Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) is a third-party appraisal service for grading rare coins. It determines the condition and authenticity of each coin it grades to provide consumers with an independent knowledgeable rating on which to judge the coin. It was founded in 1986, and is located in Newport Beach, CA.
An%20early%20PCGS%20slab.
An early PCGS slab.

In the May 26 2003 edition of [[Coin World], the hobby newspaper had announced that they had conducted an investigation of PCGS, NGC and ANACS, three of the leading grading services along with several other grading services. In this investigation, several coins were sent to each grading service. In no case did the grading services agree on the grade of any given coin, and in some cases the difference in grading was seven points off. In one case ACCGS had graded a coin as "cleaned" and several grades lower than PCGS which PCGS had not noted was "cleaned". It is standard in U.S. numismatics to grade coins on a point-scale from 1 (poor) to 70 (perfect).

In 1990 the FTC(Federal Trade Commission), which oversees business ethics and fraud, filed a civil action against PCGS alleging exaggerated advertising claims. PCGS did not admit wrongdoing, but agreed to submit its advertising for review for a period of five years. In a filing in Federal district court in Washington, the company agreed to include a statement in its newspaper and television advertising affirming that certification by P.C.G.S. does not guarantee protection.



Edited by WilliamKellogg - 25 Jun 2007 at 7:42pm
"Money is God's good in its early expression."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DoubleDie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 2007 at 9:58pm
PCGS still has the market "cornered". It is a better investment to have your coins in their holder, regardless of the past or how much one disagrees with the grade.
 
My personal opinion is that PCGS will accurately grade and authenticate correctly 9 out 10 times.
 
The above article is not scientific and argues intangibles like what company graded seven points higher than the other, and how many came back this over graded? Furthermore, if one sent several coins to one grading company, then cut them out and sent them to another, there would be some difference. However, I don't believe in 2007 that there would be that much difference between ANACS, ICG, NGC and PCGS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WilliamKellogg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2007 at 10:55am
The article was objective and thus didn't state who "over graded" what.  That was not the issue for obvious reasons:  In not one single case were any of the eleven coins submitted agreed upon by any of the grading services.  2003 was not that long ago, and I still see dozens of inacurately graded coins in PCGS slabs.  One need only go to a major show and see all the trash cans fillled with broken PCGS slabs for the evidence.  I've seen this at every major show I've been to. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WMGKL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2007 at 10:58am
Mr. DoubleDie, perhaps I inadvertently mislead you in my first comment above: my subject was not E-Bay, but rather it was the advertiser to whom Cody originally referred, which advertiser routinely posts on E-Bay ostentatious ads that would scream, if it were possible, at the reader in such a way as to attempt to excite one in the target audience to such a degree that he would be so caught up in the enthusiasm of the seller that he would believe indiscriminately in the claims of the advertiser and would buy the product without further consideration.  As Carl said, used cars: it reminds me of some of the ads for used cars you see on  TV.  Sorry about the fuzzy reference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DoubleDie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 2007 at 5:53pm
PCGS slabs broken open? Don't you know why they do this? Most PCGS coins look a higher grade than the grade on the label. So why not sell it raw, for more money, to a customer since it looks closer to MS65 than MS64?
 
Many big time dealers break coins out of slabs and this doesn't mean the grading company sucks. PCGS isn't perfect, but it is the best we have besides ANACS, ICG and NGC. No one is as good as the four.
 


Edited by DoubleDie - 26 Jun 2007 at 5:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WilliamKellogg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jun 2007 at 5:51am
I have found over the years that those who defend the slabs the most are usually the ones who have a lot of money invested in them either as collectors or dealers, and thus will have a difficult time avoiding a financial bias. 
 
So no matter how many Coin World investigations prove "Third Party Graders" (TPGs) to be highly inconsistent based on random groups of coins sent in, the TPGs that are most invested in will have the most defenders.  Additionally, the TPGs who have the most defenders also have the most financial volume to buy the most publicity which can create a very powerful circle of self-serving bias.   Perhaps that is why, in part, that the FTC had to step in and required PCGS to submit its advertising for five years.
 
I never stated that broken slabs meant that any particular TPG "sucks".  I don't use that type of language.  I don't think anyone can objectively conclude that everyone who breaks a slab is out to "increase the grade".  What it does indicate however, (rather we're for learning to grade and enjoy holding the actual coins or for relying on others to grade and collecting bulky "slabs") is that apparently a lot of dealers and collectors have wasted a lot of time and money on those broken slabs.   
 
About 10% of the coins I buy are "slabbed" although I try to avoid them.  When I can't, I break them out to fit into albums or my safety deposit boxes.  Many dealers bring a pair of pliars to shows for that express purpose.  
 
For my tastes, the slabs are far too large for my safes and I'm confident in my ability to both grade and authenticate.  Less anyone perceive that as "arrogant" they might consider that I share the same confience in most collectors who have learned or will learn to do the same.   The learning aspects are what makes collecting fun for me, and I would rather take the risks and learn from my mistakes then have information spoon-fed to me by an alledged "authority", who, per the Coin World investigation, can't seem to agree with the other "authorities".    An analogy might be whether I am to read a book about coins or have three people hand me a summary.  From what I know about teaching, all three summaries will likely be very different.  And as is often the case, erroneous interpretations or biases will be added and valuable information will be left out.


Edited by WilliamKellogg - 27 Jun 2007 at 6:16am
"Money is God's good in its early expression."
- Dr. Catherine Ponder
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